Tyler Turden just sent me this short post about his take on openers, specifically opinion openers. Many people wonder if openers will still work with the exposure they’ve gotten via “The Game” and VH1’s Pick-up Artist. You can always count on RSD’s Tyler Durden for a unique perspective on anything related to the seduction community.
An Overview of Opinion Openers by Tyler Durden
Opinion openers were popularized in 2003 by yours truly.
I heard the “I need a female opinion on something” somewhere, tested it out, and started using it as a prefix to many of my openers. Over the next three years it became used by pretty much everybody. These days there are a lot of questions on them…… “Are opinion-openers still cool? Are they outdated?”
Anyway, a few 100% unbiased PROS and CONS to demystify this whole deal…
PROS:
1- You can stop big, moving groups of girls with them.
2- You can start conversations with guy/girl groups without tripping out the guy.
3- You can approach at 5AM on dark, creepy streets more easily than “Hey I’m Tyler…”
4- You can yell down girls from across the bar to come over and answer a question for you.
5- MOST IMPORTANT: It gives girls an excuse to talk to you… That goes for both lack of intelligence (many attractive girls
are incapable of holding a conversation however if you give them an easy topic they can speak on it) as well as giving her to
option to say to her over-protective friends “I’m just answering his question!!”
CONS:
1- Doesn’t call upon the girls to be “contributive” in terms of their mental energy being expended, so can make it difficult to
transition into back-and-forth conversation.
2- You may get “stuck” on the opener because you can’t think of anything to say beyond it, and if you don’t transition off of the opener fast enough then as soon as the conversation winds down in resolution there will be a noticeable “dip” in the energy level and the girl will instinctively walk off (girls tend to interpret any dip in energy as a loss in attraction).
3- Mentally, you associate your opener as the type used by “one of those newbie newrock-wearing lair chodes” and therefore you feel like a retard using them, which causes them not to work because you lack conviction or even cringe using them… They will also come across as “fake” and “contrived” if you lack 100% congruence, and that can be tricky if the opener is not actually something you’re curious to hear their opinions about.
4- Does absolutely nothing to teach you social skills in a non-anonymous/non-club environment… If you go to a party you
feel a knee-jerk reaction to bust out an opinion opener which causes you to become “One of those weird guys who you have to keep away from the party because he runs around spitting canned material and can’t chill with people…”
5- Breeds terrible habits as a newbie because you become an external validation junkie and can’t hold your state unless
you’re getting constant laughs and buying temperature.
As a result you’re permanently blocked from ever opening by just introducing yourself (a perfectly awesome way of opening) because you’re scanning for indicators of interest and not getting them and it’s messing with your internal calibration — even though attraction right off the opener is totally unnecessary.
As you guys know I’m always evolving in how I approach women and how I teach.
I still think openers can be cool, but IMHO they *must* be mixed in and taught with a *variety* of other openers, including……
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December 10, 2007
I just got that email as well…he always has very good insight IMO. Next time I have the money and time, I’m taking an RSD bootcamp!
December 10, 2007
how much are the RSD camps? and do u who were involved with the PUA community mad or happy about’The Book’ coming out….I’m glad it did though cuz it help set the gears in motion to change my life
December 10, 2007
check realsocialdynamics.com for the prices…I think it’s $1500 for 3 days? I just spent $1400 on the stylelife west coast conference…I don’t like to complain but it’s fair to say I was not impressed and felt ripped off…maybe I had too high of expectations - The book (The Game) was entertaining, but I found the Community through internet searches. I only discovered The Game after two months or so of forums.
I feel like much of the teachings of PU should be free to men…It’s fucked up that people charge to enlighten you when they themselves believe what they are teaching you should be essential for every man.
That’s why bobby and michael kick ass!
December 10, 2007
It’s called capitalism.
John Smith’s last blog post..Race and IQ in NYT
December 10, 2007
well said Mike.
but unfortunately, as we have all learned from Mystery, even the formerly underground world of seduction has now become a business, as he proved by somewhat selling out and creating “The Pickup Artist” show. although i loved it, i still feel he brough some unwanted attention to the community from those of us who are either barely learning it or have studied it for years, and are now getting blown out by sets because of the techniques revealed in the show.
Tyler has a good point though, it should be about 80% a naturally social and fun guy, and 20% technique.. i need to work more on that 80% now.
December 10, 2007
see i understand paying money for there time and creations, take mysterys for example $10k come on thats ridiculous i dont have that type of money and then i hear about the magnum opus mind of mystery course im like cool ill be able to afford that and then they hit u with the price and its like damn i gotta take out a loan to get it(i wont do that) it needs to be cheaper
December 10, 2007
the book brought me to the community and i watched every episode for the PUA show and would love too see another one(or be on it) but i also agree it shouldnt be on tv like that showing material cuz alot of ppl use that canned material and all that does is make it a lil harder for them…..but since i found this site i really dont go anywhere else so thank u Bobby and Micheal for keeping the community in the community
December 10, 2007
for instance i wonder what could possibly be in the Mind of Mystery for $1400 that can’t be found in Magic Bullets or even the free info on this site.
I try to review as much as I can to see whats worth it, and whats not. But unless one of the companies offer me a free bootcamp to review.. you won’t see me at one anytime soon.
December 10, 2007
lol thats what i love about this site you think like the average guy not some pickup artist the makes like 50k or more at one bootcamp(which i would love to be doing myself lol)but if i become a mPUA and host bootcamps trust that i would keep it cheaper around 500 or something which the average guy could afford!! hey Bobby can u check my comment under the master the vibe 2 review MUCH APPRECIATED
December 10, 2007
and at my bootcamp Bobby you will have a free pass even if you already know everything ill be teaching(minus what i add into the game, i gotta keep it fresh)
December 10, 2007
seriously.. this site is really a hidden gem in the seduction community.. great job guys!
December 11, 2007
Bobby,
I’m going to argue against you on this one. Don’t get me wrong or consider this an attack b/c I love the site and visit it 3-4 times a day when I have a minute.
There is so much more you can learn from a bootcamp than an e-book. You simply have to pick the right instructors for what you’re looking for. Hell, I trained privately for a week with two members of an east coast seduction school. It cost me 10k and was well worth it in my book.
Outside of routines and all that nonsense…body language dictates 90% of communication. An e-book isn’t going to help you with posture, tonality, facial expressions…even the way you walk. You NEED a friend or teacher to explain what exactly you’re doing wrong. It’s not as easy as you’d think.
Didn’t mean to hijack the thread…just adding my .02 cents.
December 11, 2007
that’s understandable but do u actually beleave someone showing how to walk, smile, and stand should cost 10k?
December 11, 2007
Maybe we should start a non-profit seduction company lol.
That’s the problem with Capitalism…you can sell anything to anyone willing to buy it…it forces us to be critical thinkers.
Everyone in the business uses the same marketing tools (David D. went to school for marketing!) such as the RED FONT and carefully placed TEXT. Free email newsletters. Claiming to be the cutting edge. Some of it is…some of it is BS! IMO
Mystery is DAMN GOOD at PU…but he’s a tooL! IMO
December 11, 2007
Teddy-
That’s not the point I was trying to make. Body language, tonality…whatever, it’s all about congruence. You can’t talk the talk if you don’t back it up image-wise, women notice a guy trying to fake it.
And yes, I’ll admit 10k is a hell of a lot of money to spend on PU, but it’s not as simplistic as you put it. That got me two top instructors to fly to the west coast for 7 days of two on one training. At-home and in-field instruction on everything from projection to f-close. Outside of critiquing my approaches the best part was watching one instructor open a day set while the other hung back with me to explain what he was doing and why it worked.
My point is, it depends what you’re looking for. There is a lot of concepts and great tools you can learn from a message board or e-book, but your learning curve moves so much faster if you have another person explain your sticking points (body language and congruence were huge for me). The plain truth is it’s human ego, you don’t want to admit the areas you suck at.
December 11, 2007
I guess it really depends on who teaches the bootacamp.. ive heard mixed reponses on them.. some people swear by them, some people think they are a waste.
mike stoute did a one night in field workshop in NYC a year or two ago and thought it was worth it, but it only cost him $150. He was impressed with the instructors but.. his game was decent enough that he didn’t want to keep taking lessons , even at that price.
December 11, 2007
If you’ve been to a bootcamp I’d love to hear your experiences good or bad… either post them as a comment or send them to me and I’ll post them all as a blog.
December 11, 2007
Chase,
That’s a great point. Seeing is believing. Nothing could be better than learning from a SOLID instructor in real-time…but the cheaper alternative would be watching videos w/ audio. I’ve heard (and my friend will soon let me borrow) that MEHOW’s new DVD thing is REALLY COOL b/c he breaks down his recorded sarges and explains them. Arguably just as effective as two instructors explaining it live because you get to pause the recording, and Mehow explains it all afterwards.
Bootcamps are probably the best catalyst to getting you to where you want to go…but there are alternatives that cost thousands less.
December 11, 2007
chase its somewhat understandable for two instructors and one student but mystery charges 10k for a bootcamp where there are several students not just a one on one so if 5 students goea he receives 50k in one weekend and I know he brought a lot to the game but seriously he could cut that price and still make a lot of money…and bobby please give the review on that dvd as soon as u can. and thank you for keeping this site free like you do
December 11, 2007
Right now I’m saving up for a one-on-one lesson with juggler.
I’ll let you all know how it goes.
But for now, the only real review I’ve found for one-on-one training is with Moxie from the Venusian Arts.
If you go over to their forums you can read reviews from clients.
Apparently, there are a lot of mixed reviews from the “Mind of Mystery” shindig.
-Seraf
December 11, 2007
I haven’t really been to the VA forums since that came out I wanted one but I aint got that money for it yet
December 12, 2007
DUDE!!! youtube has some Mehow vids of what I described above…it’s money if you’re still in the beginning stages like me…some of you seem to be beyond that but check ‘em out anyway to see if you think it’s a good way to learn. I think it’s BRILLIANT! youtube search: mehow ( i think there are 3 videos from his new series: how to kiss a girl in front of her boyfriend, part 1, and part 2)
GOOD SHIT!
December 12, 2007
ima go check that out right now and put em on my ipod
December 12, 2007
Like this article. Openers are a great way for newbies to “learn the ropes”, but they can be easily overused. I think it’s important for guys to practice using them and THEN move on to developing a more natural and fun type of personality.
ScottUA’s last blog post..Good Topics of Conversation- The Correct Way to Compliment Women
December 12, 2007
Bobby,
can you post some Mehow videos on here… I’ve heard some good things about him lately. I know I can probably find them on youtube.. but i like hearing your thoughts on them.
December 12, 2007
is Mehow a PUA or what?
and if so, what does he teach..
like what is he a Venutian Arts teacher or does he just do his own thing
December 13, 2007
here you go damien
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8byrJlVL
there some lovedrop and mystery vids there too
December 13, 2007
yea fredex mehow is a part of the VA
January 30, 2008
This is just my view on things here,
1) Durden is a jackass, “Opinion openers were popularized in 2003 by yours truly” That line there is complete bullshit because if you read the game you hear about Style and Mystery useing them before thye ever teach Durden the game plus style interviews the guy who started all of this in the 70’s. I hate the idea of making enemys but Durden is by far the worst thing to happen to pickup and real social dynamics is a complete load of shit. If half the stuff he says worked then I would have been a natural at all of this.
His ideas for openers are things I have seen middle school children do to attract one another, hopping gleefully towards your target, and rocker symbols…. what the fuck are we 13?
Pickup has become an industry and people are willing to pay for it because no one is willing to sit down and learn it on their own through reading and trial and error. Mystery charged for boot camps then sold out on “the pickup artist” and style wrote “the game” so these two concepts have completely revealed what we do…. I dont think so all they have done is made it to where the new generations have to improve the game and find new material and I hate to back track with what im about to say but if you ever read the game you know durden was the first to fuck the society over with his concepts of AMOGing and Stylemogging. He taught people to be completely fake.
Thats my view on it and personally I have no respect for Durden.
February 27, 2008
For some reason, i used to like tyler durden, i mean, i would listen to some of his seminars on podcasts, and it got my attention cuz of his ballsy charisma (when i first got into the game). His posts too, they always seemed fun/funny to read.
But when i read the game and thundercat’s lair, i kinda changed my perception for this guy. For those of you who read it in the game, no explanation needed.
However his pick up style does seem good. He may have stolen some techniques and modified it, but he does the the edge of innovation - something that alot of puas/soon-to-be-puas don’t have.
Although i do agree with thumbs on that some of Tyler’s openers are ridicolous. Amoging to me seems fine, its natural in London lol. But Stylemogging is toooo far.
The bootcamps may be expensive, but gurus such as mystery worked really hard for this. Anyone who was in his position would probably do the same in charging that much. Thats my opinion anywayz, sure there are free content, but probably not as detailed as taking a course.
And its true what mystery said: “the biggest mistake that a man does, is not teaching their sons”.
Pzz
February 27, 2008
I wouldn’t base your opinion of TD off of The Game. I met Style and watched him interact with people…just because you are a good social artist, it doesn’t make you a good person. Remember, ALL of the big name PUAs have a back ground in NLP…which can be viewed as a direct manipulation method.
I think TD got a bad rap…the Game was a one-sided view of many events told by a talented writer. Even if he was a jerk, that was in 2003…were you a lesser person back then? I was.
It’s odd how we all have opinions on people and their lives but we haven’t had valid interactions with them. Why am I even defending TD?? All I know is…IMO, his crew and methods are way beyond everyone else. Its seems like the rest of the community is trying to catch up to their speed…IMO
February 27, 2008
i agree with Mike.
at first, after reading the game, i had an anti TD perception. but then after listening to a few of his products.. dude deserves respect. he really has worked on the whole area of social dynamics the way mystery has worked on his own method of the pickup arts.